Eternity in Hell or Forever Dead? Part 1 (Is Everyone Immortal?)

Where it concerns the punishment of the non elect, the chief view among Christians is that the non elect shall undergo some sort of eternal torture. I say some sort, because some people hold that this torture shall include physical torture, while others maintain that it is strictly emotional and spiritual.

Opposing the view of eternal torture is eternal death, also referred to as conditional immortality. For the purposes of this essay, and to avoid confusion, I shall refer to this view as conditional immortality.

hell_forever_and_everLittle needs to be said about eternal torture. Most people are familiar enough with it. What does need to be pointed out though, are some of the assumptions which people who hold to this view make. Like where it concerns immortality, for instance. It is the view of all those who hold to eternal torture that all of mankind, both elect and non elect alike, are inherently immortal by virtue of the fact they are made in God’s image. That is, since all men are made in God’s image, and God is immortal, therefore all men are immortal. It is this assumption that conditional immortality denies.

Conditional immortality maintains that only God alone is inherently immortal. Therefore, immortality among man is not a given, but is rather instead conditioned upon the giving of righteousness found only in the cross of Christ.

1 Timothy 6:13-16 I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who in his testimony before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, to keep the commandment unstained and free from reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which he will display at the proper time—he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen.

Romans 2:5-8 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

2 Timothy 1:8-11 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

Genesis 3:22-24 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—” therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.

Certainly, those who hold to conditional immortality do not deny that man is made in God’s image. But being made in God’s image does not mean man shares God’s attributes. Made in God’s image does not mean man is all knowing, all wise, almighty and unchanging. If we do not expect man to share in any of these attributes of God simply because he is made in God’s image, why then would we expect man to share in God’s attribute of immortality simply because he is made in God’s image? The argument does not hold. Mankind is not inherently immortal.

Consider what it would mean for the cross if mankind were inherently immortal. What death could exist that could be swallowed up in victory? What imperishable could exist that we could put on? None, for we would already be immortal.  The difference between condemnation and salvation, in this instance, would mean little more than a question of destination.

It should not surprise us to find that Rome was the first to use pagan myth to flesh out a fully realized system of theology centered upon the destination of the condemned.  Greece had given us Hades and the River Styx. The Egyptians had given us the Fields of Aaru.  In fact, nearly every pagan culture had some sort of elaborate mythical afterlife in which man, inherently immortal, dwelt in either peace or discomfort.  It should not surprise us then that Rome took what was for most early Christians a nebulous concept of punishment, and in its place erected walls, corridors, a basement and floors. God punished with death, but Dante punished with a multistory labyrinth of torture, impalement, and pain.  Rome did this to maintain political and financial advantage over the ignorant masses. Rome used the weapons of story, song and art to convince people ignorant of the Scriptures to give up their last nickel and dime for the barest opportunity to rescue their deceased loved ones from uppermost floors of of Dante’s inferno.

For many who hold to eternal torture today though, the issue is a matter of God’s justice rather than an issue of Rome’s deceit. That is, they feel death would be far too light a punishment for the wicked.

There are four problems with this view though. One, if eternal torture is required in order to satisfy God’s justice, then why did Christ need only to die? Why is He not even now suffering in darkness and pain?

Second, how can either the death or torture of a wicked person satisfy God’s wrath? If God’s wrath is eternal, then no mere mortal can ever finally reach the final installment required to satisfy His wrath.

Third, if eternal torture is required in order to satisfy God’s wrath, then why did God say the punishment CrowleyHellfor disobeying Him is death? God told Adam, in the day you eat of it you shall die. He did not say in the day you eat of it you shall be eternally tortured.

And finally, why should we expect the satisfaction of God’s holy justice to be the same as that which satisfies sinful man’s self righteous desire for revenge? Does God need to torture a fly for an eternity in order to satisfy the just demands of His holiness? Self righteous man certainly does. We want people who hurt us to suffer more hurt than they hurt us with. That isn’t God. And we must keep that in mind.

Very well, you say. That is all well and good, Dave, but what about all those texts that talk about unquenchable fire and hell and a smoking furnace? You cannot just simply ignore those, you know.

Indeed, I cannot. But I maintain that as with the case of immortality, people who have interpreted these texts with eternal torture in mind have done so ignorantly.

Matthew 18:8-9 “If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell.”

Hell here in Matthew 18 is the word “Gehenna.” Gehenna is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word, “gê’ hinnom”, or in English, Valley of Hinnom.

Jeremiah tells us this Valley of Hinnom was located near Potsherd Gate, or Gate of Broken Pottery.

Jeremiah 19:2 and go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom at the entry of the Potsherd Gate, and proclaim there the words that I tell you.

2 Chronicles tells us it was a place where idolatry and child sacrifice was practiced during the days of Ahaz and Manasseh.

2 Chronicles 28:3 and he made offerings in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom and burned his sons as an offering, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

2 Chronicles 33:6 And he burned his sons as an offering in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and used fortune-telling and omens and sorcery, and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

Jeremiah also tells us that God changed the name of this valley to the Valley of Slaughter, and that the bodies would be food for the birds and the beasts.

Jeremiah 7:32-33 “Therefore, behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when it will no longer be called Topheth, or the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of the Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth because there is no other place. The dead bodies of this people will be food for the birds of the sky and for the beasts of the earth; and no one will frighten them away.”

Jeremiah 19:6-7 Therefore, behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter. I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place, and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life; and I will give over their carcasses as food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth.”

2 Kings tells us Josiah defiled the valley during his reforms so that no man “might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech.”

2 Kings 23:10 And he defiled Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, that no one might burn his son or his daughter as an offering to Molech.

To summarize then, the Scriptures tell us that Gehenna, or “hell”, was located near the walls of Jerusalem, “by the entry of the gate Harsith” (Jer 19:2). The Scriptures tell us the Valley Gate opened into it (Neh 2:13; 3:13), and that the boundary between Judah and Benjamin ran alongside it (Josh 15:8; 18:16). Scripture also tells us that it was the scene of idolatrous practices in the days of Ahaz (2 Ch 28:3) and of Manasseh, who “made his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom” (2 Ch 33:6), and that Josiah, in the course of his reforms, “defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of the children (margin “son”) of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech” (2 Ki 23:10).

It was on account of all these evil practices that Jeremiah (7:32; 19:6) announced the change of name.   Scripture tells us that into this valley dead bodies were cast to be consumed by the dogs, as is done in the Wady er-Rababi today, and that fires were here kept burning to consume the rubbish of the city.

According to Scripture this is what Jesus was referring to when He spoke of Gehenna. He spoke of a place God had cursed where refuse and garbage was strewn, where idolatry and witchcraft had been practiced, and which now lay as a burial mound upon which the bodies of the dead piled up and served as food for the birds and the beasts.

But what about unquenchable fire?

When the Scriptures speak of unquenchable fire, it does not mean a fire which never stops burning, but rather a fire that cannot be resisted. Jerusalem would have been a furnace had the fire in the valley of Hinnom never gone out. A fire which never goes out was not the point. Rather, a fire that cannot be resisted or extinguished prematurely is the point.

Ezekiel 20:45-28 Now the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, set your face toward Teman, and speak out against the south and prophesy against the forest land of the Negev, and say to the forest of the Negev, ‘Hear the word of the LORD: thus says the Lord GOD, “Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it will consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. “All flesh will see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.”

Is the whole surface from the south to the north still burning? If not, then unquenchable fire cannot be a reference to a fire which can never stop burning.

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? If not, then eternal fire cannot be in reference to a fire which cannot stop burning.

Deuteronomy 4:24 “For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.”

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Isaiah 26:11 O Lord, your hand is lifted up, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for your adversaries consume them.

Judges 6:21 Then the angel of the Lord put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Then the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight.

A consuming fire, an unquenchable fire. These are not in reference to a fire which can never stop burning, but rather to the utter and complete destruction of God’s enemies. It is a destruction that cannot be resisted or prematurely quenched. This condition is permanent, just as Sodom and Gomorrah stand as an example to us today.

In opposition to this stands certain creeds and confessions like, for instance, the Belgic Confession. The Belgic Confession states —

“The evil ones will be convicted by the witness of their own consciences, and shall be made immortal– but only to be tormented in the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

This is unbiblical.

Consider the Belgic Confession’s claim in contrast with Isaiah 66:15-16

For behold, the LORD will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.

For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

or Isaiah 66:24.

Isaiah 66:24
Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.

If the wicked are to live forever, then what are the worms to do? Every time the worm finishes consuming the body, will God reconstitute the bodies of the wicked so the worm can begin again?  Clearly this passage is not meant to be understood literally. It is their death that will never end, and not instead the feast of the worm.

But Dave, what about Revelation 14? Revelation 14 uses the word “torment”, so doesn’t that prove you wrong? No, it doesn’t.

SODOM-AND-GOMORRAH-ART-FINALRevelation 14:10-11
he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Whatever the meaning of any given passage in Revelation, let us not insist the meaning is to be taken literally. The context is figurative and the interpretation must take this into account. Why insist the symbolism of “fire and sulfur, and smoke of their torment” literally refers to fire and sulfur and smoke of their torment if it is agreed upon that the books imagery is meant to be understood figuratively? We cannot have it both ways. Either the book is meant to be read figuratively or it is meant to be read literally. We cannot say it should be read one way and then later change our mind when it suits our preconceptions to do so.

With this in mind, one of the keys to interpreting Revelation lies in the fact that every grain of its imagery is meant to point us backward to some specific, key points within the 65 books which precede it. In other words, the final book of the Bible is filled with echoes and allusions to the other 65 books which come before it. If we want to find out what Revelation means by a dragon rising up out of the sea, then we need simply to turn the pages of our Bible back to Isaiah 27. Find out what the dragon in the sea means in Isaiah 27 and we will discover what it means in Revelation.

So then, in consideration of fire and sulfur and to the smoke of their torment:

Revelation 14:10-11
. . . he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Genesis 19:24-26
Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground

Genesis 19:28
And he looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah and toward all the land of the valley, and he looked and, behold, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace.

The scene we find in Revelation 14 echoes the one we find in Genesis 19. Jude confirms this.

Jude 1:6-7
And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning today? No, of course not. Therefore, the punishment of eternal fire of which Jude speaks cannot be pertaining to a literal fire.

The Bible often speaks of God’s judgment and anger as an unquenchable, consuming fire.

Jeremiah 17:27 But if you do not listen to Me to keep the sabbath day holy by not carrying a load and coming in through the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day, then I will kindle a fire in its gates and it will devour the palaces of Jerusalem and not be quenched.

Ezekiel 20:47-48 “And say to the forest of the Negev, ‘Hear the word of the Lord: thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it will consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it.’ “

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Hebrews 12:29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

Isaiah 26:11 O Lord, your hand is lifted up, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for your adversaries consume them.

Ezekiel 22:31 “Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads,” declares the Lord God

Exodus 3:2 The angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.

Isaiah 66:15-24
“For behold, the LORD will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment,
and by his sword, with all flesh;
and those slain by the LORD shall be many.
“Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig’s flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD.
“For I know their works and their thoughts, and the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and shall see my glory, and I will set a sign among them. And from them I will send survivors to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands far away, that have not heard my fame or seen my glory. And they shall declare my glory among the nations. And they shall bring all your brothers from all the nations as an offering to the LORD, on horses and in chariots and in litters and on mules and on dromedaries, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the LORD, just as the Israelites bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. And some of them also I will take for priests and for Levites, says the LORD.
“For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

Notice in Isaiah 66 that their corpses are an abhorrence to “all mankind.” Who might this mankind be? Will it be the glorified elect? Will the glorified elect be paraded through the fiery, unhallowed halls of hell in order to witness firsthand the eternal torture of those whom the Lord has rendered His anger and fury?

If these worms are going to be eating immortal people alive for an eternity, then are these people going to continue regrowing limbs so their worms may continue eating them? What about all the defecating and so forth the worm will be doing? Is the ground going to keep piling up for an eternity? Or is all this text really meant to be understood figuratively? Is verse 17, after all, just indicating to us that the idea behind “their worm will not die” is a reference to the fact their utter destruction will be eternal?

17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens, Following one in the center, Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice, will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord.

How can something come to an end and also at the same time be immortal?

FOR PART 2 –>  https://cornbreadandbourbon.wordpress.com/2015/06/09/eternity-in-hell-or-forever-dead-part-2-traditionalism-vs-conditionalism/

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About David Bishop

Gospel of Grace Church http://www.gospeldefense.com/about.html
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4 Responses to Eternity in Hell or Forever Dead? Part 1 (Is Everyone Immortal?)

  1. Julien says:

    This is also an interesting topic. I have wondered about it. 1 John 2:2 says: “And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” Now we know that is not applied to everyone, nevertheless, it says the whole world. That He paid the price. Therefore He has the power to apply it to anyone He chooses to, or The Father chooses to give Him… still, the sins are paid for so, if the debt isn’t God’s justice satisfied. I know that God can do what He wants and we have no reply but it makes me wonder.
    I also wonder how, unless our memory is wiped or we are completely changed how we will have perfect joy and no sorrow in Heaven knowing that one of our children or parents is burning in hell forever. Then again, I don’t know how we will be in regard to our wife or husband, knowing that we will not marry or be given in marriage but will, in this way, be as the angels. I sometimes wonder if we will (husband and wife, be rejoined into one being as Adam and Eve were before Eve was taken from Adam. Seeing how marriage makes a man and wife “one flesh”, could it be that we will be one spiritual being. I cannot comprehend that but I don’t rule it out.
    Surely it is hard for us to imagine an eternal suffering imposed by our God upon His creatures. Then again, there are so many things we have lost, such as the importance of the words we speak. He said we will give account for every idle word and I always remember the man who vowed to Give The Lord, as a sacrifice, the first thing he saw when he returned home from victory and it was his daughter, and he sacrificed her because of his word. We have LOST the value of our word, so if a man can do that then I guess The Lord can throw people into an eternal living hell. I really hope not, I’d rather that they just cease to exist but if we thought that was the price of sin, many would say, “why not”. I’ll do what I want and then be gone. I learned that is why The Lord does not just deliver us from our sins (He does deliver us from the power of sin but sins… we have to overcome by the Spirit), If He delivered us from our sins we would likely say, :thank you… see You later”. Our depravity keeps us dependent upon Him.
    I’ve never thought for a minute that The Lord didn’t plan on original sin… I mean, He put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden, applied a law, “Do not eat it” and allowed the serpent in to deceive. He knew what would happen and it makes me believe that creation is still going on. The sons of God are still being created. It is done in a sense but is still ongoing in another. So… hell? Eternal life or eternal death? Eternal life or eternal damnation? Eternal joy or eternal suffering… it seems harsh but God is severe. I think that Jesus was surprised by one thing. I think He was surprised when God forsook Him, when He became sin for us… I think that took Him by surprise… so the severity of sin, the gravity of it is beyond our comprehension and He may well send His enemies to eternal suffering. I will read all you wrote, and I apologize if I offend by responding before reading completely (I did peruse the blog post but I like to put out my thoughts before being influenced, then if they are changed and they often are, I will re-post and say so). I hope that is OK… and I will find you on Facebook. I just get aggravated on Facebook because of the politics and the “repost this and you will receive a blessing” and other things. Then there are people who see me there and message me about things I am not ready to address. Yu do have my email right? If you want me to do or not do something, tell me. I well know that I ramble and get off topic… I cannot seem to help that. I sometimes don’t check my email for over a week but I get to it.
    I would love to talk with you about several things. A few personal problems that are hard to talk about, a daughter who is living in a perverted lifestyle. Maranatha.

  2. alexd281 says:

    Hey Dave, think since you changed the name the hyperlink on the bottom of this article is broken. Wanted to bring that to your attention.

  3. markmcculley says:

    http://rethinkinghell.com/audio/meta/notes/demler_handout.pdf

    John MacArthur: Death does not end the existence of anyone, Every human being who has ever lived will live forever…either in hell or in heaven. . Not merely as a disembodied spirit, but every person will live forever in bodily form

    John Piper—. You are an embodied soul who will live forever in heaven or in hell, created in the image of God…

    Robert Peterson– God does not view unbelievers’ being eternally alive in the lake of fire as incompatible with His being “all in all.”

    J.I. Packer—hell is humanity’s future life as all who oppose God will experience it.

    Charles Swindoll– Everybody has eternal life because everyone has an eternal soul. The issue is not “Do I have eternal life?” It is, rather, “Where will I spend my eternal life?”

    Hyman Appelman: There are no guns in Hell. There is no death in Hell.

    John Gill: …the soul in torment shall never die, or lose any of its powers and faculties; and particularly, not its gnawing, torturing conscience.

    George Whitefield—Having denied the Lord that bought me, and therefore justly now denied bythe Lord, I. must I live for ever tormented in these flames.

    Richard Baxter:. Their immortal souls were guilty of the trespass, and therefore must immortally suffer.

    Belgic Confession: The evil ones shall be made immortal—but only to be tormented.

  4. markmcculley says:

    If duration of the pain is the real punishment, why is there any need to die after that punishment is done?

    If the punishment is never done, so that the condemned can never die, why does the Bible teach that the wages of sin is death?

    Death IS the punishment.

    When you translate, the result is a translation.

    When you destroy, the result is destruction.

    when you finish dying, you are dead.

    If you never finish dying, you are not yet dead.

    If you are ever dead, that death is infinite—unless that death is not permanent, or unless you are resurrected from death

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